Problem with starting TESY 61 ZD30 (DDTI) 2953 cc

[markkuczwal]

Need advice what to do. My Nissan engine cut off on idling and can't start. All fuses are ok no water in diesel it's cranking but not fireing. 

[Rumcajs]

G'day,

Is the engine MIL (Malfunction Indicator Light) On/flashing, if yes you need to check for any DTCs (diagnostic trouble codes) those codes could give an indication to a particular failure otherwise you are flying blind or so is the saying. ZD30 has injection pump which is notorious for failing but main engine ECU would give indication or response from the pump control unit if there is an error (you can't access pump ECU directly without a compliant scanner)

I don't know what your mechanical skills or awareness of diesel engine components are like but:

Start of with basics,

Is there actually any fuel in the fuel filter?

Can you undo the fuel line out of the filter and manually prime the system to see if the fuel is coming out of the filter first. (put some soft drink plastic bottle under the fitting first and if you put some suitable sized clear plastic hose on it you could also check for air in the fuel at the same time)

Undo fuel return line from the injection pump and check if any fuel is being returned back to fuel tank as you manually prime the system via the priming pump on the filter head?

For what it is worth,  I'd undo no 1 injector line (be very careful there as fuel is at very high pressure and serious injury can result, and with someone else cranking check if the fuel is being delivered there briefly. (this is very messy!)

After all above is correct, and both engine ECU and pump ECU are getting powered and there are no codes to indicate as to electrical failure then it is possible that there is a air being sucked in the the fuel system somewhere hence it will not start. You could make a temporary by pass fuel lines from either a spare fuel jerry can or or some other container bucket.

If no fuel is coming out of injector line no 1 (be very careful as fuel comes out at very high pressure so don't undo the line too much) and ECUs are powered and there are no fault codes then injection pump or its embedded ECU has failed which case you'll  need professional to help you.

Regards

 

[markkuczwal]

13 minutes ago, Rumcajs said:

G'day,

Is the engine MIL (Malfunction Indicator Light) On/flashing, if yes you need to check for any DTCs (diagnostic trouble codes) those codes could give an indication to a particular failure otherwise you are flying blind or so is the saying. ZD30 has injection pump which is notorious for failing but main engine ECU would give indication or response from the pump control unit if there is an error (you can't access pump ECU directly without a compliant scanner)

I don't know what your mechanical skills or awareness of diesel engine components are like but:

Start of with basics,

Is there actually any fuel in the fuel filter?

Can you undo the fuel line out of the filter and manually prime the system to see if the fuel is coming out of the filter first. (put some soft drink plastic bottle under the fitting first and if you put some suitable sized clear plastic hose on it you could also check for air in the fuel at the same time)

Undo fuel return line from the injection pump and check if any fuel is being returned back to fuel tank as you manually prime the system via the priming pump on the filter head?

For what it is worth,  I'd undo no 1 injector line (be very careful there as fuel is at very high pressure and serious injury can result, and with someone else cranking check if the fuel is being delivered there briefly. (this is very messy!)

After all above is correct, and both engine ECU and pump ECU are getting powered and there are no codes to indicate as to electrical failure then it is possible that there is a air being sucked in the the fuel system somewhere hence it will not start. You could make a temporary by pass fuel lines from either a spare fuel jerry can or or some other container bucket.

If no fuel is coming out of injector line no 1 (be very careful as fuel comes out at very high pressure so don't undo the line too much) and ECUs are powered and there are no fault codes then injection pump or its embedded ECU has failed which case you'll  need professional to help you.

Regards

 

Thank you very much. I have some knowledge about mechanical work. Electronically all looks good. It kicked when I used starting spry in air filter. Looks like is not getting fuel.I have checked fuel filter and is ok.  No water or air when priming. I haven't checked return line. I can not find where injection line is could you give me idea on location. There is no any warnings on dashboard, all looks normal.

Thank you very much for helping 

[Rumcajs]

Injection lines are buried under the intercooler between the inlet manifold branches, very hard to get to or if you look down the side of the engine where injection pump is you might be able to just see them coming out of the pump.

Anyway I forgot to ask, does yours have NATS (immobilizer)? If it does check that the light on the top the dash is ON( if it stays ON after ignition is ON then it has an issue or flashes(ignition off normal behavior). If you have spare key just try with that one. This could also be an issue with NATS.

Regards

Edited August 6, 2016 by Rumcajs

[markkuczwal]

12 minutes ago, Rumcajs said:

Injection lines are buried under the intercooler between the inlet manifold branches, very hard to get to or if you look down the side of the engine where injection pump is you might be able to just see them coming out of the pump.

Anyway I forgot to ask, does yours have NATS (immobilizer)? If it does check that the light on the top the dash is ON or flashes(ignition off). If you have spare key just try with that one. This could also be an issue with NATS.

Regards

Yes NATS light is flashing when ignition is off when I turn ignition on the light is off. I tried two keys and all the same.

Do I  have to take intercooler off to get to injector line?

Regards 

[Rumcajs]

Yes, you do as the access is limited. Be warned though, it is dangerous and messy affair. I've done it on other engines but not on this one as access and design makes it very difficult to carry out. I'd prefer you try to access the lines at the injection pump.

Regards

[markkuczwal]

8 minutes ago, Rumcajs said:

Yes, you do as the access is limited. Be warned though, it is dangerous and messy affair. I've done it on other engines but not on this one as access and design makes it very difficult to carry out. I'd prefer you try to access the lines at the injection pump.

Regards

Thank you, I will try tomorrow from pump side

Regards 

 

[markkuczwal]

15 hours ago, markkuczwal said:

Thank you, I will try tomorrow from pump side

Regards 

 

I have checked return line from the pump and was lots of air coming up then i have pump out all air using filter's pump.

Then i took intercooler out and loosen first injector line. I tried cranking engine but it make few turns and battery went low. 11.6V. I'm charging battery now. 

Regards 

[Rumcajs]

On 07/08/2016 at 10:11 AM, markkuczwal said:

I have checked return line from the pump and was lots of air coming up then i have pump out all air using filter's pump.

Then i took intercooler out and loosen first injector line. I tried cranking engine but it make few turns and battery went low. 11.6V. I'm charging battery now. 

Regards 

So how did you end up with it? Did you get it started?

Cheers

[markkuczwal]

6 hours ago, Rumcajs said:

So how did you end up with it? Did you get it started?

Cheers

Quote

Still working on it , can't find where air leak is coming from. 

6 hours ago, Rumcajs said:

So how did you end up with it? Did you get it started?

Cheers

Not yet, still working on it

I have checked return line from the pump and was lots of air coming up then i have pump out all air using filter's pump.

Then i took intercooler out and loosen first injector line. I tried cranking engine but it make few turns and battery went low. 11.6V. I'm charging battery now. 

Regards 

[markkuczwal]

I have connected lift pump before  fuel filter and changed all holses then loosen first injector line and is not fuel pressure in there. What could be wrong in this situation ?

Regards 

[Rumcajs]

4 hours ago, markkuczwal said:

I have connected lift pump before  fuel filter and changed all holses then loosen first injector line and is not fuel pressure in there. What could be wrong in this situation ?

Regards 

Hmm,

Are you sure you have enough fuel coming and it is not aerated? When I had injector lines off on mine it took me almost 45 mins of cranking and priming the system before it would finally start, very nerve wrecking experience to be sure.

I'd connect clear plastic hose between fuel filter and the pump and return line on the pump and the return pipe to see for myself. If there is no air present in the fuel then the news is/can be indeed the bad one for your vallet.

Are you sure there are no DTCs or engine MIL is not flashing? If the pump ECU doesn't respond to main ECU signal requests the MIL will flash, you can check that is the case by disconnecting the plug on the pump itself the MIL should flash (turn the ignition off first when disconnecting the plug)

* If there is no fuel pumping out of injection line at all that means that either:

* pump ECU is not powering up (either B+ or B- wiring is not OK),

* main ECU is not powering up (Ign+, B+ or B-)

* main engine ECU is not telling the pump ECU to start injecting fuel (NATS or data link between the ECUs is not OK)

* pump ECU and or Injection pump is broken

There is a way as a last resort to force pump ECU to operate in the so called hot mode by powering up/grounding certain pin/s but it is not for weak hearted and I'm not sure if it applies to 4 cylinder versions of VP44/Zexel units. ===>

Quote

..

HOT WIRE TEST - THE "FOR SURE TEST" TO DETERMINE IF THE VP44 IS WHY THE ENGINE WON'T START

It is very rare, but possible, for a problem with the wiring harness or the CAN Bus wires to prevent the engine from starting, so if you want to be 100% sure it IS the Injection Pump causing the no start, follow the following directions exactly, to be sure of not damaging a possibly good pump. This test POSITIVELY eliminates the possibility of overlooking an electrical problem caused by other components that could affect the start or run function of the VP44, as long as you have verified fuel delivery to the Injection Pump. Remove the electrical plug at the back of the Injection Pump and hot wire the pins on the pump as follows. Get two wires long enough to reach from the battery to the VP44. Install an INSULATED ¼ inch female spade connector onto one end of each wire.Use a set of dykes and cut the flat part and one of the "curls" away from each spade connector to leave one "curl" , which will be about the right size to go over the pin on the pump. Connect one INSULATED connector to pin 7 on the pump, which is the pin on the BOTTOM row of the socket on the Injection Pump, closest to the engine, to preferably fused (10 amp is fine) positive battery power in the PDC (Fuse box under the hood), or directly to the positive battery terminal if you like to take risks!.

Connect the other INSULATED connector to the pin 6 directly above the previous connection, the top row of pins, the one closest to the engine, and attach the other end to battery ground. Now try to start the engine and if it doesn’t start, you absolutely positively 100% need an Injection Pump! If the engine starts this way but NOT with the big plug installed on the pump, you know there is something in the harness or CAN bus wiring to the ECM telling or causing the engine to not start. 

 

Source ==> VP44 diagnostics

 

 

 

Disclaimer: you must ensure that the pin outs are correct for your model! Above instructions are for 6 cylinder versions of Bosch VP44

There is also a very dodgy way to see if the engine will start at all (so you can discount other things) that you take  intercooler hose of between intake manifold of and spray healthy dose of Aero™ Start in there and crank to see what happens.

I personally would have to be very desperate to try that way as the possible damage caused makes me cringe!

Regards

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Rumcajs

[markkuczwal]

I have connected clear plastic hose between filte's outlet and IP inlet and and return line from IP to tank. Running lift pump and cranking few times for about 20 sec each time. There was not air visible in hoses.

Then I loosen first injector line and repeated the same thing. Fuel come out approximately 50 ml each time from injector line.

Engine light is on and subtank light is on when I turn ignition on. Then when engine is cranking the engine light goes off and then coming back in approximately 10 sec. Subtank light says on all the time. 

I have problem with disconnecting the plug on the pump is very hard to disconnect and I don't want to use much force in case I can damage the cables. 

What I should try next?

Thank you very much for helping me.

 

Regards 

[Rumcajs]

Mate, I'm currently travelling overseas so my access online is a bit limited and unreliable.

There should be another interface or plugin adapter cable just above the pump attached to plastic clips on the intake manifold those are standard Nissan plugs you can try following the harness for the IP there.

The pump plug has a sliding lock which while pulled sideway pulls the plug out at the same time. The sliding lock is greyish with what looks like stand off to grab on is usually full of dust and hard to move so clean the area first then spray WD40 or similar on the surface the and observe which way to pull, its the way the handle points so while pulling sideways gently wiggle the rest out of the socket. Its like a reverse wedge. It is just fiddly and you need to figure out the motion of it.

Regards

[Rumcajs]

Having reread your post, if the fuel is spitting out at high pressure from the injection lines then I wouldn't suspect the pump itself as long as the fuel coming out is not just a weak sputter. If the fuel is going in that could also mean that it is either being injected at wrong time (timing issue) or you have no air incoming, any chance the main shutdown flap in the intake is stuck closed? There are two in the Y piece, the bigger diameter is the shutdown flap and smaller one is swirl chamber one (opens up above 1,100 RPM.

Have you check DTCs via flash code method? If it only comes up with code 55 (means no DTCs recorded)

Also pump ECU can have a codes in it that would prevent it from starting but you can only be accessed via special scanner connected directly to pump. Personally I think its time for a disel specialist to have a look.

I'd check what is the reading on the MAF sensor just in case. 

Regards

[markkuczwal]

5 hours ago, Rumcajs said:

Having reread your post, if the fuel is spitting out at high pressure from the injection lines then I wouldn't suspect the pump itself as long as the fuel coming out is not just a weak sputter. If the fuel is going in that could also mean that it is either being injected at wrong time (timing issue) or you have no air incoming, any chance the main shutdown flap in the intake is stuck closed? There are two in the Y piece, the bigger diameter is the shutdown flap and smaller one is swirl chamber one (opens up above 1,100 RPM.

Have you check DTCs via flash code method? If it only comes up with code 55 (means no DTCs recorded)

Also pump ECU can have a codes in it that would prevent it from starting but you can only be accessed via special scanner connected directly to pump. Personally I think its time for a disel specialist to have a look.

I'd check what is the reading on the MAF sensor just in case. 

Regards

I will check DTS codes in couple days and let you know what will come out. 

I have unconnected plug from IP and engine MIL staying on. Is going off only for approx 10 sec when engine cranking and coming back and continuing to be on.

Regards 

[markkuczwal]

Hi Rumcajs

I think that I have DTS codes, I have bridged terminals 8 and 1 on diagnostic connector.

And this is how engine light was flashing. L for long pulse  and S for  short pulse 

LLLLLLL  SSS

LLLLLLL   LLLLLLL

L   SSS

LLLLLLLLL   SSSSS

if I calculated this correctly it should be

0703  0707  0103  0905

There is 4 different codes, tomorrow I will see diesel mechanics and let you know what he is going to say.

Regards 

 

[Rumcajs]

Don't forget that some of the codes could have been introduced by you when you disconnected the pump (especially 0703 which is the pump com line or data link)

Do reset if in doubts and try again .

Regards

[markkuczwal]

I did it few times and only one coming back. 0706 bad news for me. I'm scraping thid car. It is unreliable and I'm planning trip to NT I can not trust nissan anymore. 

Will get some old model 4x4 so I will be available to fix if goes wrong 

It's havy rigged for desert and it is big lost for me. 

Regards 

 

[Rumcajs]

Oh well that is indeed a bad news.

While this can be caused by wiring, usually it is not and if it is the wiring it can't be replaced easily anyway. I have stripped VP44 pump before where spill valve wiring insulation disintegrated completely and bare wires were shorting out against each other but to fix that is almost impossible.

For those interested, it is a Bosch VP44 dreaded error:

Fault code 76 or DTC 0706 P6 spill valve fault:

Spill valve (Built-into electronic control fuel injection pump)
does not function properly.

Possible causes:

* Harness or connectors
*Electronic control fuel injection pump circuit is open or shorted
*Electronic control fuel injection pump

Edited August 26, 2016 by Rumcajs

[Boggy bay]

What is a good diagnostic reader for my 2003 ddi early. Most readers i tryed wont connect! Boggy bay cheers

[Rumcajs]

Most reader you have tried are probably OBD2 types, Nissan has fooled a lot of people with that one as the bastards use what looks like OBD2 plug but is not OBD2 communication protocol, it is still that pathetic proprietary Nissan Consult crap. Unless yours actually has Consult plug

If you have an access to MS® OS based mobile computer then the best software to use is ECUtalk and you can either make your own interface or purchase one from ECUtalk website, there you research the Nissan trickery with the plugs etc, they have a good run down on what is what.

ECUtalk interface

Regards