twisty Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) Draft The talk has already started about recovery and where to attach so I thought I'd start a dedicated thread. If I get something wrong or you have more info then tell me and I'll update this post. Towballs are NOT recovery points and can KILL! Don't use them! EVER! from google I'm not sure anyone makes rated recovery points. If you have a new bit of steel with a SWL stamp on it I'd love to see a pic (bow shackles don't count). Snatching (particularly) and winching put a lot more stress on EVERYTHING. A difficult snatch can apply upwards of 3x the vehicle weight! What's the weak link? You won't know until it breaks! The Nissan tow points are just that, tow points. Towbars also have their limits. Warning (thanks carnaby). Most of the stuff we bolt onto our beloved trucks doesn't meet Australian standards for lifting & rigging (unless stamped with WLL) and are not tested to destruction. Working Load Limits (WLL) (thanks Ray) A tow or lifting point that is rated to sustain a load of 3500kg, is in fact able to sustain a much higher load before deformation or breaking. This is where Safe Working Loads (SWL) or as they are now defined as Working Load Limits (WLL) apply. The safety factor is usually around 5:1 ie if the WLL is 3000kg, the failure load will be at least 15,000kg. A lifting chain or sling with a rating of 8000kg will have a failure rating of 5:1, but a snatch strap rated to 8000kg does not have that 5:1 factor built in, it has a breaking strain of 8000kg ie it will fail at or about 8000kg of load (depending on condition of strap and other factors it will usually be a lot less). Chains are designed for lifting and constraining loads, they are not designed to be used where sudden and high forces are applied. Rear If you have a Hayman Reece (HR) towbar then you have a rear recovery point. You can make something like Many clubs simply use the pin. There are also commercial billet HR inserts for about $50. i have one of these (below). Of course this only provides a single rear recovery point. A rear bridle will need two (). Front After market recovery points can look like these but there are many varieties. Below are mine ($150 pair with bolts). Shackles Use "Bow" shakles, not "Dee" shackles. Bow shackles allow the strap to move at different horizontal angles without "bunching" Try using a shovel first. Edited May 17, 2012 by twisty dronus4x4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnaby Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) i agree towballs are not recovery points neither are towbars they are rated for max 3500 kg my rig is 3 ton x3 =9 ton in a snach i have seen quite a few towbars bent like bannanas i have hooks bolted to the sides of the towbar and use a equalizing chain reece hitch adapters are only good for towing not snatching Alan Edited May 12, 2012 by carnaby dronus4x4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMsMK Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 I was thinking of putting a couple of recovery hooks on the side of mine, I will now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted May 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 Thanks Alan. neither are towbars they are rated for max 3500 kg my rig is 3 ton x3 =9 ton in a snach i have seen quite a few towbars bent like bannanas i have hooks bolted to the sides of the towbar and use a equalizing chain reece hitch adapters are only good for towing not snatching Have you got a picture of your towbar hooks? I've NEVER seen ANY hardware that states it can be used for snatch recoveries. That's the point. No one will rate hardware for snatch recoveries where loads are hugely variable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) I think that one needs to understand ratings when it comes to applying forces to load points. A tow or lifting point that is rated to sustain a load of 3500kg, is in fact able to sustain a much higher load before deformation or breaking. This is where Safe Working Loads (SWL) or as they are now defined as Working Load Limits (WLL) apply. The safety factor is usually around 5:1 ie if the WLL is 3000kg, the failure load will be at least 15,000kg. A lifting chain or sling with a rating of 8000kg will have a failure rating of 5:1, but a snatch strap rated to 8000kg does not have that 5:1 factor built in, it has a breaking strain of 8000kg ie it will fail at or about 8000kg of load (depending on condition of strap and other factors it will usually be a lot less). If a tow bar has been bent like a banana, I would dread to think what the chassis looks like, to which that tow bar has been attached. There's a lot more to this discussion than meets the eye. Cheers Ray Edited May 12, 2012 by Ray! KMsMK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted May 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 Thanks Ray. can I copy some of that into my op? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 Thanks Ray. can I copy some of that into my op? Not a problem. Cheers Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMsMK Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 Thanks Alan. Have you got a picture of your towbar hooks? I've NEVER seen ANY hardware that states it can be used for snatch recoveries. That's the point. No one will rate hardware for snatch recoveries where loads are hugely variable. The recovery hooks are rated at 10,000lbs. Here's a pic. You can buy them at auto shops. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronus4x4 Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) The recovery hooks are rated at 10,000lbs. Here's a pic. You can buy them at auto shops. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I saw them (the hooks) in OL today and asked about them as I'd also seen them included in an online promotion. The advice I was given was that they are only to be used on special bars (Xrox?) As tow points, not for winching and certainly not for snatching. The clip is to hold the tow rope eye in place when coasting... I can't validate that advice authoritivley but when you look at it and how it mounts compared to the OP's plate recovery point it makes sence.. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 Edited May 12, 2012 by dronus4x4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnaby Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi all id sooner have two 10000lbs hooks mounted next to the chasis than to pull off 1 point in the centre of a towbar with a max tow limit of 3500kg remember most of the stuff we bolt onto our beloverd trucks doesnt meet aus standards for lifting & rigging and is not tested to destruction Alan twisty and KMsMK 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronus4x4 Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 I'm looking at getting some rear bolt on recovery points made (i dont have a hayman reece towbar, ive removed the pintle which gives me a standard NATO 4 bolt pattern to bolt to). Would the OP like me to post details here or start another thread? I don't want to spam your thread unnecessarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 Here's a link to some recovery points, similar to what I was alluding to earlier: https://www.expeditionexchange.com/backingplates/. Interestingly, this supplier also recommends backing plates, which you rarely, if ever, see offered with anything sold here. The other thing that should be pinted out with recoveries using snatch straps, is that one shouldn't just attach a strap and go hell for leather in an attempt to recover a vehicle. The first and foremost thing one should do is start slowly and see if all that's needed is a simple tow. If that isn't sufficient, then more effort should be applied, but not to wring out everything possible from the tow vehicle, else things can and will likely break, on the tow or towed vehicle. At some point, reason shoud be applied and winching considered, or connect two vehicles for added traction and weight. Unfortunately, some people love going at things like a bull at a gate and then wonder why things went wrong. Cheers Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMsMK Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 Hey Ray, can you get these within Aus. Or are they imports only? They look good, thanks mate Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 I've never seen them for sale here. Ebay might be an option. Cheers Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted May 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 I'm looking at getting some rear bolt on recovery points made (i dont have a hayman reece towbar, ive removed the pintle which gives me a standard NATO 4 bolt pattern to bolt to). Would the OP like me to post details here or start another thread? I don't want to spam your thread unnecessarily. Spam away. If the information (recovery POINTS only) can be kept in one spot, all good. I'll update the OP as required. Another thread on technique might be fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 I think the recovery point is just half of the equation, perhaps there also needs to be the another half and that's about what is attached to the recovery point and how. How many people know how to attach a snatch strap, even to a shackle, or what to do if a snatch strap breaks. Should you join two snatch straps? How should you join two snatch straps? Cheers Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMsMK Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 That would be good info Ray. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronus4x4 Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 Count how many things are being done incorrectly in this photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 Count how many things are being done incorrectly in this photo. The only thing missing is the Jim Beam. Cheers Ray The Big Rig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottheshits Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 As far as i can tell its only that he doesn't have gloves on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottheshits Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 The only thing missing is the Jim Beam. Cheers Ray That's stereotyping Ray, I drink Jimmy.........ummmm maybe i should edit my last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnaby Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hi all here a a few pics of my rear hooks they are 10000bls all test i have seen on these say they straighten out at around 15 ton each http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/carnaby54/P5160922.jpg"]http://http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/carnaby54/P5160921.jpg"]http:// Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray! Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Not to be pedantic, but have you determined at what tonnage your towbar will separate from the chassis, considering that the hooks are attached to the towbar? Cheers Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnaby Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Hi Ray , they are bolted to the strongest part of the bar in a straight line pull the bar is bolted on using 50 % more bolt capacity than the hooks and is supported over a large area of the chasis again on a straight line pull and the towbar itself and the chasis brace the hooks from pulling together under load for the work i do this setup will be fine and is far superior to a single recovery point but thanks for your concern Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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