A basic Guide to Using Veg oils as Fuel.

[Glort]

The Veg oil Primer.

No way to keep this short so make a cuppa and settle in or go to the next thread if your concentration is short. I have tried to address commonly asked questions in this post to make the info as informative as possible and answer as many questions as possible instead of just creating more.

Vegetable oil based fuels are a replacement for Diesel Fuel only. They CANNOT be used in petrol engines.

There are basically 3 ways of using Veg oil:

* Straight Veg oil

Known as WVO ( Waste Veg oil) and SVO (Straight Veg oil.)

Any vegetable oil can be used. Cottonseed, canola, Corn and sunflower are the most popular in oz. Peanut, olive , palm and other oils can also be used. There is little to no difference between the way they work in an engine.

Straight Veg is best not used in everyday start stop traffic unless a water injection system is fitted to clean out potential deposit build-up. SVO Fuelled vehicles also benefit from regular full power squirts to keep injectors and engine internals clean and short runs as with any Diesel are not recommended. Veg is at it’s best on long drives and under load.

WVO generally requires modifications to the fuel system of the vehicle. The common mods are to fit a heat exchanger to the coolant circuit of the vehicle so the oil is heated as it passes through. The heating thins the oil and reduces it’s viscosity to make it easier for the IP and injectors to spray into the engine.

Normally also fitted is a 6 port or Pollack valve. This enables the vehicle to be started on regular diesel and run till the engine is up to operating temp and then switched to WVO. Before shutdown the engine is returned to the Dino so the oil is flushed from the system. The valve is operated from a switch fitted to the dash so can be operated by the driver on the go.

The fuel is changed over because WVO is much harder to “ Light” than diesel and makes starting much easier on some Vehicles, particularly if they are older and have less than perfect compression.

WVO systems are known as 2 tank systems as another tank ( generally a 20L drum or such) is fitted to hold the diesel for start-up and shutdown. Many people also fit a 2^nd set of larger fuel lines for the oil and as a backup however this is not at all a necessity and few vehicles requite it. The 6 port valves are designed to run on the original lines and just swap feed tanks.

Once the engine is hot, it can be run as long as required on veg. If the engine is shut down for a short time, 2-3 hours depending on ambient temp, there is no need to change over back to diesel. The oil will stay warm and thin enough to easily re start the engine on.

With regards to performance on Veg oil, the oil itself has about 10% less energy value than Dino. Some people say they gat a slight power loss, some say no different and a few say they get an increase. It really depends on the tune of the engine and the vehicle although assuming a slight full power loss is most practical. The addition of 5% Petrol has been found to restore a lot of the lost power and has other benefits in cold starts and thinning of the oil.

SVO is collected from restaurants and has to be cleaned of food particles and any water.

Many people do not “ Dry” their oil and unless the oil has had water added ( rain in the waste oil drum or washing dregs for the restaurant) then short term use is OK. ( Say on a trip where drying is difficult) The reason for drying the oil is stated as preventing damage to the IP but practical experience of hundred’s of people is that bacterial growth forms in the fuel tank and causes problems long before any IP damage occurs. Anti bacterial additives are usually compatible with Veg.

Most people filter the oil to 5 Micron (Um) through “ Sock” filter bags which are available from industrial filter suppliers and there are also some sellers on ebay. These bags are properly rated and remove all the particulates to their rated size. They are also available in 2 and 1 UM, some people preferring to go to the smaller size for good measure.

By comparison, Regular Diesel is generally rated to 10 Um filtration as are most on-board filters.

Another way of filtering oil is with household type water filters. These are also rated in Microns and can be obtained in sizes from 20 to .5 Um. When using these filters, It is highly preferable to use the “ String wound” Types as against the expanded foam type as the latter has much less dirt holding capacity and blocks much faster. Water filters can be very handy for filtering oil on the road and the filter cartridges can be bought from hardware stores and the like on ones travels.

There have been highly incorrect news reports over the years that the veg oil can be merely poured through a disposable “ Chux” type cloth and into the tank. This will work for a short time till the particles block the tank pickup, stuff the fuel pump or block the on-board filters in VERY short order.

It is highly preferable to have a reserve of veg oil and let it sit as long as possible before use. This allows much of the crap and any free water to drop to the bottom of the tank and leaves much cleaner oil on the top which allows the filter bags to last much longer when the oil is processed before use.

* Biodiesel.

Unlike with WVO, Bio requires NO modification to the Vehicle. One pours it in as they would diesel.

Biodiesel is basically a chemical filtering/ stripping of one Molecule of the oil to make it much thinner and a direct, pour in replacement for Regular diesel that can be used in most engines save for the later DPF types in some cases.

Biodiesel requires no preparation of the oil as far as filtering but free water in the oil is to be avoided as it reduces the yield of bio and increases the amount of waste product. Most Bio makers just strain out any bits of chips, batter, bones etc with a few layers of fly wire and call it good. Any junk is pulled out in the by product.

Biodiesel is made by Mixing Methanol (generally at 20% volume to oil) and a caustic base ( KOH, NaOH… AKA, Drain cleaner) together, heating the oil to about 50oC to speed the reaction process and mixing it with the oil generally for an hour to ensure complete conversion to Bio.

After being left to stand, A thick black goop drops to the bottom and is known a Glycerine.

This is generally around 20% of the oil volume but depends on the quality of the oil to begin with and how used up it was.

This is drained off the Bio and the bio is then washed with water to remove any dissolved Glycerine and residual methanol/ caustic and then dried. The drying is generally done by use of a powerful aquarium pump and a bubble stone to evaporate the water out of the mix until the Bio is clear and shiny.

Bio can be very hard on rubber components and seals etc. Generally rubber has not been used for many years in vehicles but occasionally it may be encountered on older vehicles. Most new components are relatively impervious and a material called “Viton” can also be obtained in may applications which is Bio proof.

One character of Bio is that it is a fantastic solvent. When used in fuel tanks, after a while a lot of black rubbish will start being seen in fuel filters. This is NOT from the bio itself but rather the bio stripping out the rubbish that has built up from the years of diesel use.

People fit cheap disposable filters to catch this and save the more exy OEM filters or remove the tank and clean it out properly. The age and quality of the fuel used determines how much crap is liberated.

Bio will thicken in cold weather ( below 5oC) but it depends to what extent on the oil used and how pure the Bio has been made. In cold weather many people cut the bio with alpine Diesel or Kerosene to keep it flowing easily.

* Blending.

This is my personal favourite way of using Veg oil although it is the underdog of all the methods despite offering all the advantages and few of the drawbacks.

Blending is simply mixing or cutting WVO with a solvent.

Popular choices are Dino, Bio, and Petrol. Other things such as Avtur, avgas, Turps, thinners and Kero also work well depending on available supply to the user.

The WVO is Cleaned as normal and simply mixed together with the solvent and poured in the vehicle tank like one would with dino or Bio. NO mods are generally required to the vehicle although some people fit a Heat exchanger for good measure to help thin the oil component.

Blending ratios can start at 95% oil and go down to 95% solvent depending on what is being used and most importantly, the prevailing temperature at which the fuel and vehicle are being used in.

One could use 95% Dino, 5% oil or it could also be 95% oil, 5% Dino.

The only limitation is with petrol/ avgas blends where it is unwise to go over 15%, 20% absolute max in sub zero weather.

DEPENDING on the vehicle, as little as 5% Petrol or Kero can be used in summer. Some vehicles prefer more, but 10% in summer with petrol would be a safe limit.

For Dino, in summer anything from 10 to 30% would be workable but you can add as much dino as you like obviously.

In winter and as always depending on the vehicle, anything from a 30% ration of Dino up would work.

The guide to how much solvent is used is generally based on how well the vehicle starts.

It is not necessary for a an engine to fire on the first compression stroke as some seem obsessed with but it is desirable to have the engine fire within 5 sec. When the blend is right, this is easily achievable. After starting there may be a little stumbling for a few seconds till the engine gets some warmth into it but after this the engine will run as if on dino. Obviously starting is much easier in Summer.

Ideally blends should be varied according to the prevailing conditions for best efficiency. No use using 50% Dino when 20% would allow the vehicle to operate perfectly well. One would also not want to be running 20% petrol on a 35o summers day as the possibility of the fuel boiling in the lines and creating vapour lock would be be high.

Blending takes a little while to become proficient at but soon one gets a feel for the vehicle and the engine and knows what mix to make. 3 part mixes can also be effective where say one is already up to 15% petrol but starts are still a little hard so additional kero or dino can be added.

Generally people try to keep the solvent content which is usually bought and paid for fuel as low as possible and the free veg oil ratio as high as possible.

[Glort]

Running a 4.2D on veg oil.

The 4.2 is a great candidate for veg oil use.

Having inline or rotary Bosch pumps, IP failure is not an issue.

I have been running my ’88 NA engine with 560K km on straight veg and blends with NO modifications ( other than a lift pump) for about a year now. I did have a Heat exchanger installed but due to it being too restrictive once I turned up the IP, I have bypassed and haven’t worried about it. I will probably try to fit a larger one this winter.

When I first got the Vehicle near the Qld border, I merely purchased a spare fuel filter, pumped up the tyres, topped the tank off that had about 20L of Dino in it with Veg oil and drove the thing back to Sydney without a hitch. I ran round in june- july with the thing dead stock and just adding 10% petrol. I later added a heat exchanger and CAV fuel filter as well as a Walbro fuel pump.

In summer I run on mainly straight oil but add 5% petrol when I remember which helps with performance on oil. I recommend a 5% min blend all the time. The petrol helps bring the ignition speed of the oil back closer to that of Diesel and makes a big difference in power and Torque.

Personally I wouldn’t bother running one of these on a 2 tank setup.

2 Years experience has been enough to tell me it is in no way necessary unless you live in a climate where it regularly gets to zero. When it did, I’d just run high ratio Blends of petrol and dino for a couple of months till the temps came up again.

My experience with my NA engine when turning up the IP was that the lift pump on the IP struggled to pull sufficient fuel through. I fitted a walbro pump and it made all the difference. I also replaced the OEM fuel Filter with a CAV filter for cost and ease of availability. That said, the OEM filters seem to have much more dirt holding capacity and less flow restriction.

To run a 4.2 on oil requires nothing much more than pouring in clean, dried veg and go as long as the ambient temps are around 15 oc or above Most of the time.

At this time of year I would suggest adding 10% Unleaded. One could also add a flat plate heat exchanger ( FPHE) to the fuel line to help thin the fuel. This is most beneficial in melting any fats that may accumulate in the filters and block the fuel flow. That said, If the oil is processed correctly, there will be little to no fat drop out anyway.

Heat exchangers are available on ebay for around $100. A 20 or 30 plate is sufficient.

For optimum performance on veg, the timing can be advanced 5 degrees on stock. I have never bothered with this myself but for those with a power thirst it will make a small difference.

[Sooty_10]

Good write up with some good info, how much does the veg oil usually cost you per liter and how many liters/km do you get or approx range per tank and capacity? Cheers mate

[twisty]

Thanks Glort. I learnt something.

[Glort]

Good write up with some good info, how much does the veg oil usually cost you per liter and how many liters/km do you get or approx range per tank and capacity? Cheers mate

I get my oil for free. It's a waste product to the restaurants and they are happy to have their garbage removed asap.

In the past restaurants had to pay to have it collected. In some areas I believe this is still the case. I am not aware of anyone in Sydney charging for its removal. In the past when the price of fuel was high, some collectors were trying all sorts of tactics to secure all they could. A number promised to pay the restaurants and put them on contracts which were promptly broken when the price fell and I am yet to speak to anyone that actually got paid a cent.

If one considers the total cost of processing and cleaning the oil, I have worked it out to be well under 1c a litre. My processor would use about 2-3C worth of electricity per 200L batch and the only other cost is filters. These would run less than $20 and I usually get around 2000L + out of a set.

I usually process enough oil to fill a 1000L IBC in 200L batches. On my last lot I stuffed up the last batch and pumped dirty oil into the processor not the settled oil. This blocked my filters prematurely so I only got the 1000L batch out of that filter set.

What a shame, doubled my costs! Might have cost me 1.5C per litre for that lot!

A lot of people think process oil is too messy and time consuming. Many just hang the filter bags up, fill them and let them drain. This can be a slow and messy endeavour. After a few mishaps with this system, I built myself a processor which filters and dries the oil in a 44 gallon drum.

I pump the oil in, let it process and pump it out to an IBC finished and ready to go. This takes about 15 min hands on time and I can do it wearing a suit if I want because there is no mess or spillage.

The processor is dead simple and cost me less than a $100 to make. Obviously more than paid for itself first time out let alone the thousands of litres I have put through the thing. The bigger pump I recently put on it has blown a seal so I'll buy another till I repair the other with a new seal and then I have a job for the 2nd pump anyway.

As far as range goes, it seems to be much like the power. Most people report about a 10% loss but it does depend on the vehicle.

With my old '88 NA 4.2, loaded to the gunwhales with 200L of oil on board for the return trip and all the crap for a family of 4 that fill the thing, I can go to Brisbane from Sydney on around 120L of oil. On the highway with light loads I can get down into the 10Km/l if I take it easy.

My wifes Peugoet recently returned 6.5l/ 100 on a country trip on oil and it was loaded up for a few days away and I took 2x 25L drums of oil as well..... Which turned out I didn't need. :0)

People often report around 6l/100 for these cars but I have also dialed mine up pretty high on the fueling and boost and It dosen't slow down a bit on any hill I have found so far.

[admin]

Glort, can you pop up a few pics of your processing plant or maybe even a video on how its done?

[mitchgq]

thanks for that glort! and yes pics would be great

[Dye-04]

Great write up, thank-you

[Dye-04]

There is some awesome stuff on Ebay to make this process as easy as possible

Heated fuel filter

[Glort]

The heated Fuel Filters as pictured above are OK, probably suitable for blends but I would not rely on one as my main heat source.

They would be OK for stopping fats clogging the filter but the do not have enough heat transfer ability to be a proper HE for Veg oil. That said, IMHO the VE pumps and Inlines on Patrols can operate quite happily with no heat at all so these ae probably OK.

For what I'm sure is the same money or less, you can get one of these FPHE's.

They come in different sizes, 20 or 30 plate is sufficent but you need to plumb them up properly, not the way most sites describe.

If you know what you are doing , you can also make your own HE.

I made my own which was a copper coil inside a tube with the water from the coolant circuit running through it.

I used about 2 meters of copper line and did 2 lines in 2 circuits. Only ever used one as the thing got the oil more than hot enough on the first pass so I could use the other circuit for a shower or to re-heat return fuel in cold ( snow) weather to keep the fuel in the tank warm and flowing.

One type of heater to avoid is anything electric.

There are a few differet electric designs but the bottom line is that the energy needed to heat a flowing mass of Oil as required by an IP to appropriate temps ( 70o c Up) is simply impractical for a 12v system. Some of the heater designs are simply diesel glow plugs that the oil flows past. Another popular but stupid design is an electric/ water heated devise.

The idea is the electric heats the oil till the engine temp comes up and the coolant heats the oil. Obviously if the heat transfer from the coolant is enough to put heat into the oil, it is also more than sufficent to take away any heat the electrics put in when the engine is cold rendering the electric side even more useless.

I never cease to be amazed how many people buy these stupid devices without relising the obvious flaws in the design.

As for the pump pictured above, They are not reported to be very good on veg. They tend to burn out very quick due to the wiring to the brushes in the motor overheating due to the extra load the viscosity of the oil creates over water or diesel they were designed to pump.

There are a lot of ways people pump oil. Some use hand pumps, some use petrol powered 2" water pumps, some run inverters with electric pumps. Another popular (bad) choice is drill type pumps. There are a lot of black ones around that are hopeless. There is a type that comes in an orange colour and is a different fatter shape that works awesome. The cheapies are about $10 or under and are useless, the orange ones generally go for about $30-40 and work infinately better.

I have used a variety of different methods and started out with a small generator in the boot of the car powering a 1" water transfer pump. Worked great if bulky ( and smokey) till the weather got cold, the oil got thick and the pump lift dropped. Next was a small 1" 2 stroke puump I borrowed off a friend. Dismal failure.

After that I went to a Rule Brand 1500 GPH Boat bilge pump. worked pretty well but again the cold thick oil really knocked its flow rate. Fantastic in warm weather. Virtually silent in operation and low amp draw. Was a bit messy though and not fast enough for what I wanted. I was getting about 25l/ min flow on 20oc oil.

A pump I was working on was a rotary hand drum pump. I was going to remove the handle and fit a timing belt on a couple of pully's and gear down a small electric motor to give about 120 RPM. These pumps flow a fair amount on each turn so would have a great flow and be self prining which is a near must if you are pumping oil regularly.

I didn't finish the project as the cost of the pulleys was not cheap but would be an easy conversion for anyone that had or could access the pulley's and belt at the right price.

My next and present pump is a Modified Small block Chevy oil pump. I locked the original ports on the thing and bored 2x 2" holes either side of the rotors and fitted a couple of 1" gal elbows. I drive the thing with a 300W 24V electric scooter motor. Again on room temp oil this one flows a much more efficent 80/L min.

There is a Youtube Vid and description here:

[media=]

I have just built another pump of the same type but optimised the pump internals for oil flow and used a High volume pump rather than a standard version. The HV is supposed to flow 30% more due to the longer rotors in the pump.

I have also sourced a little gruntier motor which I think will help the flow a tad. The old one was 300W, 2750 RPM.

The new one is 900w, 3800Rpm! I expect to get a min 120L / min with this setup, possibly 150L min.

I think I may have to upgrade the hoses I am using now as the pressure may get a bit much for the convoluted hose I'm using atm.

I have to machine the shaft of the motor to accept the coupling in the next few days and mount the thing up. One trick with the chev pumps is to offset the couplings rather than get them dead true. When the pump is working the gears mesh hard on the drive side so offsetting the couplings gives them sme relief under load and makes the whine of the gears substaintially less. I spent ages on the first couple of pumps I built getting to couplings precisely lined up. I thn dropped one when out collecting and knocked the motor a bit out of alignment only to realise the thing was then a lot quieter.

A number of people in the states use these pumps but most tend to use the original ports or at least one of them which are far too small for max flow the pumps are capeable of. They also drive them with cordless drills which are lucky to get much over 500 RPM so flow rates are appropriately poor. To get the things really working they have to be opened up and larger fittings used.

Being gear pumps these things are positive displacement so cannot be closed off at the input or the output. When blocked on the output side the things will pressurise up till either the motor stalls or the hose bursts. The latter in my experience is more common. The upside is I have pumped ats so thick they extruded out of the hose and held their sausage like shape for a good 5 min before I wiped the stuff away. I don['t normally collect fats but they are good for my mate who makes Bio.

The yanks have a number of rather expensive pumps sold for veg collection but even mains powered ones barely if at all eclipse the Chev pump output and are always heaps more bulky and cost min 5 times more.

If using a water type pump, always go for ones with large impellers. Technically these are called centrifugal pumps and the ones with the small impeller housings are called Turbo pumps. To tell the difference, the centrifugal pump will have an impeller LARGER then the electric motor and a turbo pump will have an impeller SMALLER than the motor.

The small rotors simply can't get enough " Bite" on the oil to flow it successfullt where the larger impellers bite very well.

I have to re-do my processor pump in the next few days as well so I'll try to get an up to date vid of the processor working.

I'll also try to get some shots of the new collection pump and measure it's flow rate.

That one I'm looking forward to.

Centrifugal Type pump.

Turbo Type Pump.

Drill Pump, the type GOOD for oil. ( never seen them in blue before!)

Drill Pump. The USELESS for ANYTHING type.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Glort

[twisty]

I notice you process up to 1000l at a time and that would last me 3-4 months. How long can veg oil be kept Glort?

[Glort]

The oil I process I use over about 3-4 months as well.

Before that it's been sitting up to 12 months before being cleaned or filtered in any way.

The key to storing it is to keep it in a sealed container to limit the exposure to Oxygen.

Removing the water is also a real good Idea if you want to keep it long term say a year or more. t's a bit like the Triangle of fire, remove one or more elements and it can't happen. The can't happen in this case is rapid degradation or bacterial activity.

Some people add petrol or diesel to their oil to help with storage. Unless you are aiming for years of storage ( for what reason I don't know) Just keeping it in a closed container will be fine.

I store the majority of my oil in translucent IBC's but I also try to limit the amount of sunlight They are exposed to by keeping the tanks covered. I don't know if that helps the oil or not but I do know it helps prolong the life of the plastic tank!

I had some oil up the back I forgot about and had there for at least 3 years. Cracked the Steel drum and tested it and it was still perfect. I suspect it was better than when I put it in there as it had time to settle the Sub Micron particles from the 1 Um it had been filtered to.

Veg oil is Hygroscopic meaning it will absorb moisture from the air. Some of the veg alarmists go on with crap about filling the empty space in a container with C02 or Nitrogen but that is just typical yank pedantic overkill. As long as there is not a refreshing supply of oxygen, the oil will be fine.

I usually decant my IBC's about 200L at a time and have never had an issue with polymerization or any other deterioration of the oil.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Glort

[Glort]

Just re reading my previous post I thought I'd update.

I built the new pump with the big motor and the results were dissapointing. The flow is not much more than the pump with the smaller motor.

I have only tested the thing rather than used it for a collection so far but at this stage 2 things come to mind.

The first is I already have the pump maxed out with the small motor. My hesitation at this idea is that the new motor is clearly turning the thing faster and that alone should be enough to make the flow higher than what it is.

The 2nd thought is climate. I can't remember when I tested the other pump, I just remembered the output figure. It's possible I tested it when the weather was warmer and the oil was thinner than it is now in the middle of winter. I spose I could test the pump on warmed oil but I'll try and do a back to back test of the 2 pumps on the same oil and see what difference there is with that.

The other possibility that comes to mind is the suction side of the pump is maxed out with the fittings and hose. Whilst the thing can create pressure on the output, it's limited by atmospheric pressure to push the oil in. I can't get any bigger fittings onto the side of the pump even if going another 1/4" may give me the greater flow I expected.

I have been looking for bigger pumps I could drive with the bigger motor and I can't really find anything with a worthwhile better flow than what I have.

I also came across an old Lucas starter motor that has the straight shaft output and a ton of grunt.

I looked at these years ago and everyone told me they would over speed and burn out and other things amounting to them being totally unsuitable.

Now I have one and have played with it, I strongly suspect the warnings were i'll founded.

I have run the thing for 10 Minutes at a time with no load and it seems quite happy and the heat buildup is nil. I believe now more than ever my initial thoughts of greatly reduced load would offset the heat buildup and allow longer running time. This motor is at least 3 hp so should drive a pretty impressive pump long enough to empty a drum of oil pretty quick.

I'm still looking for such a pump.

I rebuilt my processor and the leaking pump on that with new seals.

I sat a veg oil burner of about 100Kw next to it and had the flame aimed at the side f the drum. Horribly inefficient but with that much power from free fuel, not exactly a worry when the oil got to about 50 o+ in about 10 Min.

The settled oil was dry almost as soon as it got up to heat. The fan on the top was sucking in the hot spill air from the burner which was going across the top of the oil in the drum as it splashed around and I suspect this air was very dry and helped pull a lot of moisture from the oil as it passed.

I was giving the batches about 30 min in the processor to allow the oil to make sufficient passes to be filtered. With the oil that hot it was plenty thin and flowed through at about 20L a min.

Unfortunately I committed a stupidity and burned out my pump motor. After pumping a batch of oil to the storage IBC, I forgot to close the valve on the final filter. I heated the batch and left it to circulate. Because the storage drum is about 20M away, it takes a while to pump the oil out so I never noticed the drop while I was there. I was intending to come back out and finish the batch but I ened up falling asleep and didn't get back to it till the morning. IF the valve was closed and there had been oil in the processor it wouldn't have been a problem but for some reason I suspect the pimp over heated and fried one set of the windings.

Rather annoying as I had just rebuilt the pump side and that type of pump isn't easy to come by and expensive when you do.

Such is life.

Bunnings have some 1" pumps I might give a try as a replacement. They seem to have a decent rotor size, sufficient head and lift rating and are only about $80. I save nearly 4 times that on every 200L batch of fuel I do so worth a shot I suppose. At worst might be a bit slower but I can process for an hour instead of 30 min with no great dramas.

[BigGQWesty]

Well I've just started reading. Got the ok from the Missis, I'm going to make bio-desiel....

And I found this site..

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

What you think Glort?

[Glort]

Well I've just started reading. Got the ok from the Missis, I'm going to make bio-desiel....

And I found this site..

http://journeytofore...iesel_make.html

What you think Glort?

Like anyone else that knows anything about veg fuels, I think that site has THE most flawed, misleading, and Plain wrong info you could possibly find on the subject anywhere.

Unfortunately because it has been round a long time, it's usually the first one people find at the top of the search engines and it's written in such a way as to sound authoritative.

Old Keith Addison has been informed a million times of the blatant errors in the info there but refuses to change any of it because he wrote it and therefore believes it's correct. As far as anyone can tell, Old Keith hasn't actually made any bio himself ever.

This is probably one of the more popular sites with this one having one of the best knowledge Pools and is run by a very well informed guy that has contributed heaps to the veg oil/ Bio fuel movement. There is a local site but it is run by a couple of tossers that think theirs don't stink and one especially has a do as I say, not as I do mentality. It amounts to coming off as an expert then admitting he's never actually made bio himself.

Are you just looking to run your 4.2 on the fuel westy?

If you are, I would suggest you try blending your fuel instead of going the Bio route. Bio is great don't get me wrong, but the fact is you can use Blended veg oil with a lot less effort, equipment and expense than you will incur with Bio.

If you had a modern common rail I'd say bio would be the best bet by a country Mile but having run my old girl for 2 years now on straight and blended Veg, I can tell you from practical experience it works and works real well in this engine.

If you believe that Bio is all you will be comfortable doing, then the 2 sites I linked to have a wealth of info, even if the first one does suffer from a generous input of the typical over pedantic Yank forum mentality. It will certainly get you started on the right track and you can go on your own experience from there.

The golden, undisputed rule with anything veg ( and it's about the only with universal agreement) is before you do a thing or spend a cent, Make sure you can obtain a supply of oil first. No use getting a bunch of equipment and then finding there is no where you can get oil.

One of the best things I ever did is getting a rather impressive supply of oil before I even had a Diesel car. It made things sooo much easier all along.

If there is anything specific you want to know as you head up the vertical learning curve, feel free to shoot me a message.

If you are ever in Sydney let me know and I'll introduce you to a mate of mine who I believe is one of the most knowledgeable ( and modest) people in the WORLD on Bio. I see what he does and plays with and he's done stuff years ago people are still talking about now and knows what works and what doesn't.

You'll learn more from this guy on Bio in an hour than you would in a year with a lot of other so called experts.

[BigGQWesty]

What a bummer.. Wasted 6 hrs reading last night, and during that time I thought 'I wonder if Glort has replied'... Coulda saved a few hours.. Lol

Owell I'll get into your links tonight. source the oil. I think this will be relatively easy as we have 6 fish and chip shops, and multiple fast food outlets (fast food and servos).

Ok, threw winter down here it does reach 0 occasional but sits around the 5 degree mark at night and not much more than 15 through the day.. What blend would you recommend for a stock 4.2 NA?

[Glort]

Just check what the fish and chip shops use. I could get a ton a week literally of lard but given that it sets up solid at under about 40oC it's not much good for blending or using without making bio and then there are complications with that anyway. There is no best OIl, as long as it's liquid and the more fat free and lower acid number ( meaning it's not been cooked to death) the better.

For blending at this time of year and with the temps you are seeing, I'd try a 10% petrol blend. You could go up to 15% if it's still too hard to start but given I'm seeing around 5o in the morning and my old girl with over half a million k's is firing up fine on dead straight oil, I'd be surprised if you needed to go to 15% but if you do, you are still going to be saving 85% on fuel costs.

Once the weather warms up a bit you can back the amount of petrol off. There are no hard and fast rules, see how the car goes and after a while you can play with it as needed. For some years now I mix by the tank. If I know the weather is going to heat up or cool off over the next week or whatever time frame I am going to get through that fuel, I'll mix accordingly. If it changes, I can always add more oil to back the mix off or add more petrol.

When adding, I usually add the fuel to some oil before I put it in the tank to help with mixing. Veg and petrol mix very readily but if you dump one on top of the other without any agitation, they will tend to sit in their respective levels in the tank. Give them a bit of agitation and they mix easily.

The neighbors have often seen me jumping on the towbar and bouncing the car up and down and I know by the look on their faces what they are thinking but there is actually a valid reason for me doing it!

For best results with oil in a std engine, I reccomend adding 5% petrol at all times. You don't have to by any stretch in hot weather, I just find if you are running standard timing ( which is Diesel timing rather than oil timing) and fueling, the 5% ULP can give the engines a bit more pep and make up for the slower burning of the oil.

As like anyone you will be a bit cautious when you first try this, You can just throw in 25L or so into half a tank of dieso to try it out. Don't be expecting to see any change or hear any difference ( other than the engine getting quieter) because there won't be any. It works quiet seamlessly and disappointingly when you are in trepidation and expecting something to happen because nothing ever does. The biggest change you'll notice is the smell becomes a lot more pleasant.

One thing I see a lot of the pedantics comment on with oil is the engine takes longer to start.

When you question this you find it's not that they have to sit there turning the thing over till the battery is flat and the starter is glowing red. You find they say " It started on the 2nd compression stroke and now it takes till the 4th. IE, about .5 of a second longer. BFD!!

I prefer an engine to turn a good few times before firing so when it does light, the oil comes up to pressure a lot faster. What the benifit or need to have the engine fire the moment you even look at the key escapes my understanding.

If you find the thing does take a few more turns, Don't worry. Once they are over that dead cold morning start, you will find it starts pretty much as normal.

Based on my 2 years experience, If you have any trouble I'd say its the engine not the oil that's the problem.

Last year I had 3 mornings where I live where it was -3. I was running straight oil at that time and did expect trouble but the thing fired up inside of 3 seconds which i was plenty happy with. One morning I drove about 500M to the servo to get some milk and when i came back it restarted straight off.

Anyway, start with the 10%

[BigGQWesty]

I just love your answers Glort... A great read every time.. Well I've been given an early minute so off to the shops for me. Bunnings then Oil shopping...

Edited July 13, 2012 by BigGQWesty

[BigGQWesty]

I see why you say find the source first... Out of 7 phone calls only 2 are vege based and 1 is already counted for.. But the second one uses 20L every 2 days.. It's a bear minimum I think, I may have to do a letter drop as there are others around town which are not listed in the book.

[Glort]

You will find most are accounted for with the Cowboy collectors.

Now -some people- whom have had experience with collectors, don't have a lot of respect for them and their ways of poor service and standover tactics to competition, Just scout around the backs of restaurants and laneways and pump out or pick up what they can find.

Other people look at collectors drums as a sign the place is taken, some look at it as a sign of where the liquid gold is.

For this reason it pays to have a pump and a drum(s) to pump into.

To source oil, don't forget places like Bowling/ RSL/ Various clubs, take always in industrial areas, Restaurants ( especially Asian ones, NO lard there ever!) and function centres.

There is a lot more sources of oil than just fish and chip shops.

When you do come up against the collectors and the people that tell you they already have a collector, just ask if they would give you SOME of it?

Often people will be happy to GIVE YOU ( magic words) some of the oil. If it's up to you, the some can be most of it bar the slops and fats in the bottom you don't want anyway.

It really is all in the sales pitch!

If Lard/ Frytol is all you can get, then Bio may be your best choice after all. You will have to cut it in winter to stop it gelling up but you can still save plenty of money replacing your diesel with it.

I think if you expand your potential suppliers, You'll find liquid gold rather than having to make Bio with the white solids.

[BigGQWesty]

The RSL is a good point, I may do some driving tomorrow and hit up the pubs, restaurants and even KFC, maccas if needed.

I know KFC use seed based oil (I think). How does this work?

[Glort]

KFC just changed from hydrogenated oil ( absoloutley Terrible stuff from a health POV!) to Canola I think it is.

Much better for your health ( Even if you are already a slob that doesn't worry much about that) and for running vehicles on. Anything liquid is Fuel of the independent.

IF you can sweet talk the manager, KFC have tanks that have 1.5" Male camlock fittings on them. You have to pump the oil out because it won't drain the way they have that tank set up which feeds/ emptys from the top Via a diptube.

You could always offer to do an exchange of a slab every couple of months for the oil. Liquid currency speaks all all languages. The oil will be in a tall tank out the back behind the roller door. Older KFC's have a separate garbage area in the car park, the newer ones have it in an area of the main building next to the drive through.

They WILL have a collector so remember to find out what week of the month they come, and get there the Sunday morning of the weekend before.

Same with any other collectors. Generally they collect once a month so check the drums every week for a while till you find out what week of the month they call. Round here it's the 3rd week but obviously that varies from area to area as they cover the whole city or come into that town.

I wouldn't bother with Maccas.

All the food bits from the burgers and pies ends up in the same place.

You could have a look and be careful to pump from the top of a tank if they have one but I think they may have something similar to KFC.

You might be lucky and they have a 400L tank.

Driving round and checking out the rear of the shops is the best way to see what oil is accessible and what is oil/ lard etc.

And remember, It's easier to ask for forgiveness than try and get permission from self important lame arses that want to make mountains out of mole hills over what is actually rubbish and stuff you around on their ego trip and have a reflex action to say NO to anything they don't really understand.

[BigGQWesty]

Ok Glort.. I've hit a wall.. All I can score is lard based..

So to the link I put up. How accurate is his bio production?

I'm struggling to find any procedures on your links

Edited July 16, 2012 by BigGQWesty

[Glort]

Hmm, I can see how you managed to spend so much time there.

Unfortunately there is more wrong there than I realised. The mixtures, numbers and procedures are all pretty off.

I'd suggest your best bet is to go to this site and ask who is around you making bio and if anyone would give you walk through of their setup.

Tell them I sent you. That will upset their day. Maybe you better not. Probably wouldn't be the best way to endear your self to the forum mods and owner!

I know what you mean about a step by step procedure but each segment of bio making is like a science in itself its really for the best to have a good understanding of the overall thing rather than follow it as a 12, 2 3, .

I know that not what you want to hear but I'm not being pedantic, I feel I'd be misleading you to say it was as simple as following the steps WITHOUT some background knowledge so you know what to look for and expect.

If you do get it right, it is a very straightforward process and you don't need all the complexity people go on with.

You will see people go on about their reactors that look like something that came from a Nuclear plant rather than has old fish and chip oil going through it in someone backyard. I and others I know have made very good Bio in nothing more than a an open top 44 with a lid, a pump circulating the oil and the thing propped up on bricks with a gas ring to heat it.

OTOH, I sourced a lot of components for my mates processor and that thing is a sight to behold and never ceases to have people gobsmacked even if they are bio makers. It's not complex for the sake of it, it's just designed to make Bio different ways according to the type of oil being processed at the time and what method will be best. We also do 1000 litre batches ( although it is capable of doing over 1500L at a time) so it is a Substantial and significant size contraption.

I have made a couple of batch of Bio myself but don't have a setup for it. A guy that helped me understand it when I was going to get into it has become a very good mate so I supply him with a Lot of oil as I can always get way more than I ever need and I go over and help him with the bio cookups. The plant is big enough to keep 2 people busy running it so I usually prep the oil we are going to use by drying and filtering it while he does the testing of the oil, making up the chemistry and running the processor itself. In return, he gives me all the bio I need so I have no requirement to make it myself. I'm all set up for producing top quality straight oil and he's set up for the bio production.

Another thing I'd do before you go into the bio making is ask the people on that forum where you can source the Methanol and KOH from.

I know in some places getting this stuff is very difficult and the suppliers that do get it have no problem charging 50 to 100% over the going rate you would pay in Syd or Melb. That could push your production cost as high as .60C per liter and with all the work and time involved, I can't say i'd be that enthusiastic to bother with it at that price. Many people look at it as a hobby so the price is not so relevant and the savings are still substantial enough for them.

Some of the guys like mates of mine that live in Dubbo and another in Nowra make trips to sydney to visit friends or family and go back with 4 drums of meth and the same amount of bags of KOH. There may be some Bio makers around you that you could add to their bulk purchase with to cut your costs or get what you need if it isn't available locally.

When you find someone that does make Bio and you source your Meth and KOH, the next thing I'd do is make a test batch using the world famous, Patent pending, ( Bio in joke) " Dr Pepper method". Once you have done the test batch and processed it ( all one litre ) Put it out where your truck is in the garage or wherever.

What you want to do then is have a look at the stuff in the mornings when it's cold and see if it is still liquid or gelled. If it's gelled you will at least need to cut it with some Dino or petrol which will help lower the gell point and allow you to use the stuff in temps too cold to use it normally. With lard, the temps you are saying you get down to in your area are right on the borerline of gelling or non gelling. It depends on the actual base stock and how through your processing is, but more on the oil you are starting with.

I would guess you should get nine months of the year you can use the bio with no trouble and the likely hood is with a bit of blending you should be right year round.

There was a guy I was friendly with from Mt/Gambier that used to call in on his holiday travels and get some oil off me. He was a pretty knowledgeable bloke and as I remember, used to get more liquid oil than what he needed. He used to travel up to QLD with a camper trailer so Sydney was about where he ran dry and he would stock up to get to brisvegas where he could refill there to get back then get more off me to get home. I forget his name now but I'm sure he would help you with any excess oil he had and maybe steer you to some suppliers. Long time since I spoke to him but if he is still on that forum I'm sure he will make himself known to you.

Anyway, what I suggest is to spend some more time reading up on the process, get onto that forum and see if there is anyone doing bio or has an excess of liquid oil they might be prepared to put your way ( and try to tolerate when the forum demi god and his butt licking minions when they chime in with their holier than thou drivel) and see how you go.

I read heaps on bio making as it was what I was first going to do but until I saw a reactor setup in the flesh, I never quite got it. Once I did it all fell into place and I realised it was as simple of warming some oil up, throwing some chemicals in it, stirring the crap out of it and separating the gold from the rubbish.

Everything else is just a refinement of that basic procedure.

[BigGQWesty]

Thanks Glort.. This is a better site.

I'll keep onto the oil though.. Someone has to give...