Forum Mentalities. Another rant.

[Glort]

Much as I like forums and have learned so much from them, they often Chit me to tears.

And before I say anything else, none of the following comments apply to THIS forum as so far thank god, It is a refreshing exception to what I normally see.

On every forum I have been on ( bar this one) of wide and varying subject matter, a mentality of certain things develops which seems to fly in the face of reality, practicality, real world experience and evidence.

People develop a pattern of thought and parrot advise which is completely ignorant and usually in no way reflects the happenings of the real world.

Mentalities develop and are then considered fact when in many cases I have seen, the facts of Physics, laws of science and just plain common bloody sense make these parroted mantras completely stupid. Of course when anyone comes along and points out facts or asks for any sort of verifyable evidence to back up the position touted, the fact that 100 idiots have parroted the same flawed info is given as being proof in itself.

There are many I have come across which are not based on physics or science but just belief and position which are also stupid. I have to say that far and away the Yanks are the most ignorant and the worst offenders Of "Forum Mentality" garbage of all. Maybe that's why this place is free of it, we don't have any/many septic's here.

A great comment I read recently was on a photo forum where a guy was getting all sorts of impractical and stupid advise on how to price his work.

One guy who just happens to be far and away the worlds most successful at what he does and what the other guy was asking about, was getting lambasted by wanna bees for his against the grain comments.

After a bunch of clowns had said their piece, he simply asked how many people were actually following the advise they were giving in their business and pricing their work according to the formula they were insisting to be right.

He also asked whether they were full time or weekend warriors.

Despite him asking several times, not one person said they were actually following the advise they were trying to ram down everyone elses throats.

Amazing!

What I find laughable and annoying is the now numerous occasions I have spoken out against certain mantras/ practices and policy's and called them wrong and flawed and given evidence why, only to be shouted down, called an idiot etc. After a while someone else goes against the grain, tries something for themselves and discovers I was right. they pass it on and after a long while, the very thing I said becomes the mantra and the ones that push it the most are the ones that gave me the most flack for it in the first place. Of course they then go on to make out that THEY were the ones whom were responsible for this contribution to the interest group in the first place.

I swear to god there are people out there I would walk up to and smack in the face without a moments hesitation for the chit and hypocrisy they have given me. The court appearance and fines would be more than worth the satisfaction!

I think it really comes down to too many people sitting on their computers and not actually having any experience in what they talk about. I have got into debates where people were incessant in their position and would not hear of there being any possibility of anything being right other than their position. You then find out that they have NO actual experience with what they are talking about. It's all what they think based on what they have read on forums or wherever.

You might have been doing something for years or dozens of times but still, you are wrong and they are right and if you point out the real world experience difference, you are just being a smartarse or a mongeral or whatever.

Loads of times I have read something, got up, walked out and tested the theroy, come back and written what I found and people have said it is wrong. Again, when you can get them to finally admit it or ask for their findings, they admit they have never done the test or tried what they are saying. Somehow though, you are wrong and they are right!

There is a whole world of things you can learn from the net and forums but you really have to learn first what to take notice of and what to ignore. The commonly parroted mantras can be real traps and it's wise to ask the people championing them about their actual real world hands on experience before you put too much credibility in anything.

[Dye-04]

I couldnt agree more. A mate of mine has worked in spare parts for 15 years. BUT, he has never even serviced his car in his life, let alone fits a part to it.

However he is always telling his customers how easy it is to fit the parts he is selling them.... He has no idea!!!

I know he would get onto forums and give his 2c, having never worked on a car in his life.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Dye-04

[Glort]

However he is always telling his customers how easy it is to fit the parts he is selling them.... He has no idea!!!

Are the parts he sells easier to fit than other brands?

If they really are he could be onto a winner. Somehow, I have my doubts.

One of the things I was reminded of this morning else where is the forum idiots that come on asking questions about how to do this or that then in a few posts are arguing with people that have been doing it for years and telling them their way is wrong.

Umm, hello! Weren't YOU the one asking for help and now you are throwing it back in the face of someone that HAS been doing it successfully for a long time and tried to help you of their own free will?

Unbelievable.

Even if you don't think the advise is good, The proper thing to do IMHO is be grateful someone tried to help you in the first place, thank them profusely and show a bit of respect and appreciation for them going out of their way for no gain of their own to try and give you a hand.

[GPSTI]

The thing is, it's important for roughly half the population to be "right".

Check some books (Florence Littauer writes some good ones on personality types) to discover the broadly 4 types that everyone has a varying mix of.

The problem with being "right", is that even if one is, one isn't, necessarily.

The words "valid viewpoint" should be substituted when analysing things; there would be much more progress, and much less angst and anger.

A wise mentor once told me that people will not change for the better, become more learned, or improve their socialising skills if they do not read books and meet new people. (anonymous Forums did not exist back then, so I'm adding this - keyboard dancing does NOT qualify as reading books or meeting people).

Note that I'm not saying all the books you read and new people you meet are going to lead you to nirvana.

But if you're reading a book on, say, "Photography developments in the 21st century", and someone walks up to you and engages in conversation about photograpy, you might end up with a new customer.

Like getting jobs - statistically most jobs in Aus are filled without being advertised, because the job seeker has come in contact face to face with the employer. It's called networking.

So in summary, most faceless communications aren't worth a pinch of shit - forums are the same really, until you meet the others in person and see that the spelling nazi is really a nice easy going bloke, for example.

So I'm deciding right now that I'm dribbling a bit so

.

[GPSTI]

End of dribble (not drivel, I hope)

[Glort]

Not sure if I'm taking this the wrong way as in too literally or it's just not my experience.

I don't read books much these days because I found years ago that online info is more up to date than anything.

And free!

I have learnt entire business models and setups off the net, exclusively forums because there are simply no books written on the subject even to this day. Same with my veg oil antics. There was one book written about 10 years ago that was pretty flawed when it came out and I have never read it. All of my learning has been done through forums and hands on practice.

As for meeting people, I have met a lot of aquaitences I keep in touch with regularly and one guy whom has become a very close friend.

He's pretty opposite to me. Bloody smart, methodical, neat and tidy, looks after himself, calm and reserved, has the patience of a saint and gets on with everyone he meets. I hope some of these qualities rub off.

I hope lots of them rub off actually!

One thing he wishes he has as a quality of mine is being more assertive. I wish I had his patience and calm nature.

We both agree that somewhere right in the middle of both of our traits is probably about ideal and would certainly be better for both of us.

There is a guy from the states who took me under his wing for something I was interested in doing in photography. He gave me invaluable info and a lot of his time in helping me with emails and messages. It was great last year when he came through to do a job OS and we got to meet up and I had him over for an aussie dinner. The info he gave me allowed me to become the biggest and best in Oz at what I was doing in no time and both saved and made me a lot of money. I easily accellerated my learning curve the 10 years he had been in the game through his help.

This guy is far away the biggest and best at what he does but I still see people arguing with him all the time.

I know how much this guy makes a year. Clearly on many of his jobs that's more than these tossers will make in a year or 10 but that doesn't stop them knowing better. He made things dead simple for me. I just did what he told me, even when I had reservations which were short lived and proved him right 100% of the time.

Doesn't apply to me!

I'm a bastard in real life and anywhere else!

I have to say in my experience, the people that I have been friendly with online are people I have been able to have friendships in the real world and the people that seemed tossers online proved to be so in real life as well. I understand what you are saying the difference is, I just haven't found myself that there is a difference in how I have found people between Cyber space and real life.

[Rumcajs]

.............................................

Even if you don't think the advise is good, The proper thing to do IMHO is be grateful someone tried to help you in the first place, thank them profusely and show a bit of respect and appreciation for them going out of their way for no gain of their own to try and give you a hand.

Well I was wondering what to do other day when I read an advice (not to me) and it is being clearly misleading/misrepresenting or plainly wrong. Do I object/attempt to correct/challenge or question the advice given or just think "what a toser" and move on.

I was challenging such advice on another forum and got yelled at, the offending advice was even thanked for while my reasoning was rubbished. Worst thing is that the advice in question came from one of the forum sponsors( a new member as well), I decided to look at what they offer and it got my blood pressure up even further as these people are ripping off the ideas of others and passing them as their own and getting it perhaps wrong possibly dodgy as well.

What to do, when clearly these people are taking advantage of less savvy individuals.

I'd guess each to their own.

Cheers

[Razor]

Got to love those that pose a question on a forum when they've already see up their mind and have no real interest in the answer.

My favourite is "should I put a HID conversion kit in my headlights". Now about 95% of the responses will be "no, they're illegal and glare all over the place blah, blah, blah" with a few saying they've got the and never been flashed and one guy fessing up to having been flashed with them fitted.

So what does the OP say??? He says "I think I'll fit them anyway and see how I go"

Just an example but it happens for heaps of stuff that people ask should they fit or buy.

[Glort]

So what does the OP say??? He says "I think I'll fit them anyway and see how I go"

Haha.

Seen the same thing on loads of forums.

Ask a question then effectively argue that there is only one correct answer and it's usually the opposite to what experienced people are telling them.

And usually these people are completely beligerant and insulting about it.

I was challenging such advice on another forum and got yelled at, the offending advice was even thanked for while my reasoning was rubbished. Worst thing is that the advice in question came from one of the forum sponsors( a new member as well), I decided to look at what they offer and it got my blood pressure up even further as these people are ripping off the ideas of others and passing them as their own and getting it perhaps wrong possibly dodgy as well.

Been there 100 times.

I don't think it is wrong to point out what you think is incorrect with advise given. I certainly do it. I also point out why i think it is incorrect and give as much supporting evidence as i can. I have been called argumentative amoungst other things but I have also received support from those that don't like

what I say normally due to the fact that i do give reasons for a differing opinion not just argue for no reason without anything to back it up.

I try to think things through and find the facts and as self serving as it sounds, i have gone against the grain many times and then been proven right all along although this often takes some years for people to investigate things themselves or some university or company to do proper tests.

The number of times this has happened with my veg oil exploits I can't begin to count.

Seems people that have never so much as changed their own oil will argue black and blue over technical issues when in fact they cannot even describe basic principals of any type of engine from steam forward.

I think it is worth pointing out when you think things are wrong as long as you are polite and you give some explanation as to your basis for your reasoning. Sometimes the people that have other ideas will see your POV and be thankful that you have pointed out something they have missed or forgotten about. It's good to help these people.

Unfortunately you frequently get the wankers that already know everything so the best you can do is have a laugh and move on.

Like the guy I mentioned earlier said, Ask these people if this is what THEY do themselves or have done it and what the results were. That often brings a lot of real and very telling info forward as to the credibility of their position.

[Nutta]

What shits me with a lot of forums these days is the way youre attacked when you post a question, like youre meant to know everything and youre a fkn idiot because you dont!

I mean thats why i asked in the first place.

Also when you get SEARCH!!, im sick of fkn seeing it! If we all searched the forum would near die because no one would start a thread.

Im actually becoming reluctant to ask a question these days for fear of attack, whinge over!

Oh yeah, this forum is cool, cheers.

[Glort]

I agree with the search thing 1000%.

I always search before asking a question but in doing that. you realise how completely and utterly useless a lot of the forum software search functions are.

The other thing I find is I have no idea what something is called so don't know what to put in the search engine in the first place.

I can describe it to a person and they will know what I'm talking about and can tell me what the term is straight off, but that doesn't work with a search engine.

There is a couple of forums I look at that have some people that -REALLY- spend too much time there. They can link 10 past related threads to any question off the top of their head that has been demonstrated the search engines can't find.

I think they must cross index every thread and post on their own machine!

One that gets me is people that ask really DUMB questions.

The sort of question that the answer requires no knowledge of the subject itself, just a moments thought with the application of plain common sense and logic leaves no doubt with. Often the answer is in the question itself if they took the time to think about what they are really asking in the first place.

[Ray!]

I don't believe that there is such a thing as a dumb question, other than the one not asked. People's minds just work in different ways and what is bleedingly obvious to one is a complete blinder to another. A whole lot of factors come into it that makes different people see things in a different way, but at the end of the day it's usually not intentional or laziness. A lot of people are actually scared to ask questions of forums due to the fear of being ridiculed. I've had many PMs over the years from people posing a question, but prefaced with an apology for asking such a dumb question. The questions have not been dumb and if not asked, would have often left the individuals in the dark, not knowing where to turn.

I can remember a maths teacher once deriding me for asking a dumb question, when I couldn't understand a thing he was trying to explain (his English was crap). I bore the brunt of his ire, but I could see that most of the others in class were just as bewildered. I never bothered to ask or really listen to anything he had to say after that and fortunately he only lasted a short while and a much better teacher took over.

Cheers

Ray

[Glort]

Hmm, I still think there are dumb questions. If a person that has no knowledge of the subject can answer the question out of plain common sense, as I have seen countless times, then to me it's Dumb.

As for teachers with crap english, had that with my son last year. He laid into a teacher after the silly cow screamed at him and sent him out of the room for quietly asking the kid next to him what the hell she was saying.

I had heard his frustrations for weeks before hand so I knew some background to the story.

The teacher put him on detention and that afternoon before the boy got home, rang me to say he hadn't shown up.

Took me about 10 minutes to comprehend that from her.

I gave her a serve myself about not being able to understand her and her responsibility to be able to speak so she could be understood and could actually perform her job as a teacher.

I then rang and spoke to the principal who was not that old but had modern ideas with old school values.

I told him I would not be having the boy penalized because the teacher failed in the basic requirement of being able to communicate effectively and it was up to her to be able to speak English, not my son to be able to understand Punjabi.

As the school representative and ordained golden head boy, my son was known and liked by the principal and he admitted in a very "professional" manner that this was not the first complaint about this teacher he had received in her short time at the school and that basically he had to take what the department sent him until he could move them on if need be.

He said my son would be cautioned for the way he spoke to the teacher. The next afternoon my son said this amounted to being called to the office, asked " Do you know what you are here for? I have to discipline you over it so consider that done and did you see the football last night?" and a 15 minute talk about that before being sent to lunch 10 min early.

The teacher was there about another month but did not return after the next holidays. May have been by her own volition after incidences where she lost control and all respect as the kids paid out on her mercilessly after 3 failed attempts to spell the word "Wednesday" and other numerous examples of incompetence.

He enrolled himself in a selective school this year which thankfully has a MUCH higher standard of teachers..... Including a guy that was one of my high school teachers!

[Ray!]

Some just need to verbalise their thoughts, which then allows them to better focus on what they already know. I used to do tutoring in Defence years ago and I know that even the brightest can sometimes get their thoughts tangled and it's only by asking a question that things suddenly align. But I do dislike questions asking for the best option, when the option has already been chosen. But then again, maybe it's the way some people phrase the question and what they really seek is anything that would make that option a deal breaker, rather than seeking alternative options.

Cheers

Ray